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Wednesday, April 03, 2019
Comments update features a debate over unpaid internships
www.dezeen.com: In this week's comments update, readers are split over unpaid internships, with some labelling them as detrimental to the industry and others defending them as a vital part of young architects' training.
13 comments:
Kaylie C.
said...
I agree, and I think this fully applies to theater as well. I think that theater does much better in this sense because of the nature of summer stock, yet there are still internships which carry a lot of weight on a resume, yet are known to end up costing the intern a significant amount of money *cough cough* Williamstown. In the end, these internships only support those who are privileged enough to be capable of losing money on their internship. Even cost neutral internships to me can be problematic. Internships are meant for people who are in college or are recent college graduates and there are many young people having to pay their own way. Sometimes it is simply not affordable to end up making no money for the summer. That said, cost neutral is better than nothing. The existence of summer stocks makes interning a much more accessible opportunity within theater, but there are still ways to improve.
I commented on the earlier post about this issue as well. Unpaid internships are classist and promote the idea that your labor and time are not worth anything unless you are a full employee. This is entirely unacceptable; Students are saddled with life long debts the moment they start their education. How can any organization reasonably expect any but the wealthiest of students to be able to work for three months (summer internship) or a full semester without being paid? Bills like housing, food, insurance, etc. still need to be paid. The firm in question in this article suggests that paying interns is an unviable practice. What? If you run a business and can't afford to pay your employees, then you should not be in business. That is how our economic paradigm functions. Don't want to pay people? Tough. It is really nice to see that the gallery took a stand against the practice, even though the architects will likely just move unpaid staff to other projects.
This is such a peculiar issue that plagues me and the rest of my peers everyday. A lot of really big companies get away with not paying their interns simply because its an observation position. For me this is interesting because the internship can and will be much better for someone in the future, but its also a financial hit. I really think that we risk a lot, no matter what internship we choose to go to. Each of them have issues, some work you more than others, and occasionally, you end up doing work that you should have been paid for. An unpaid internship is definitely something that people should consider before taking it, can you find the same thing somewhere else? Is this internship worth it in the future? Are you going to have a good time at this internship? I don't really have the most vocal opinion on this topic either way, but I do think that there are pros and cons to both.
I definitely believe in the importance of paid internships because it does not limit opportunity from those with less financial resources. I learned through my brother who majored in finance, that it is very rare for internships for those in business to be unpaid. Yet this is not always in the case in other fields, specifically theatre. Depending on many other resources that are provided though, I believe this can be negotiated. Sometimes having housing and transportation be provided is worth more than the minimal pay offered. My point is, that internships provide valuable experiences for students and those who are new to an industry, but they must not be taken advantage of. The company is benefitting just as much as the interns, so they should not simply be a free labor source. This is especially important in companies such as the one in this article that utilize creative insight from these interns.
I find it odd that there is a debate over paying interns. The answer to me seems very clear. Although this isn’t my reasoning there is the valid point that unpaid interns have and will sue the company they work for as they are told to do actual work for the company yet aren’t payed for that work at all or well below anything that equates to something of value or worth. The only time unpaid internships would be correct is if the intern isn’t doing anything for the company at all. This would include menial tasks like moving papers from office to office or grabbing coffee. If what they are doing in any manner is for the company, then they should be paid minimum wage at the very least as is required by law. However, such an internship would be worthless if to not work for the company in any respect. As for my reasoning, it cannot be expected that people can work for a length of time without pay. People need money to pay bills, buy food, and simply support themselves in a way that allows them to continue living. Without pay for a standard summer length internship would be to dedicate your time for three months and work for them while not getting payed, effectively losing your home or becoming much further in debt. This just isn’t a good system and anyone who is worth having as an intern is worth being paid.
This article discusses an issue that my peers and I are always thinking about. I honestly believe that, if a company is able, they should pay their interns. It is not only an issue of teaching interns that their work is valuable and should be rewarded, even if they may not be complete experts in a certain field, which is a huge issue on its own, but there are also financial repercussions to young people who are trying to move up in a field. If internships do not pay, then people who are not able to spend a summer without making any money are immediately excluded from certain opportunities that, by nature, should be open to all. I do not think that any intern is expecting to be paid a full salary because they are there to learn as well as to help move a production forward, but not paying anything makes the work interns do completely valueless, which it is not, and excludes many people.
Someone once told me something which to a “muggle” may sound a little unorthodox, but it definitely stuck: “Experience bucks can’t buy you lunch.” Our industry does not pay well, as we all know, and experience and understanding of the art is something which is greatly valued. Internships are a bridging of the gap between education and employment, but for some reason, with way too many organizations, the second “education” is brought into the mix, the money disappears. A number of my friends ultimately decided not to work in theatre because they could not work in the industry to help pay off school in their summer months. Unfortunately, this happens in a wide range of other fields too. This then becomes an issue of classism, as educational opportunities are not accessible to students who can’t afford to live without an income. It angers me because these internships are huge educational opportunities and great resume add-ons, but they’re only available for people who can afford them. Paid internships validate the value of a person’s work, allow them to (hopefully) keep themselves financially stable, and make the internship all the more valuable.
Unpaid internships should not happen, its not okay for people to lose money by accepting an opportunity to work somewhere. It feeds into so much economic disparity and the loss of opportunity for individuals who can’t afford an unpaid internship, I realized after applying I wouldn’t even be able to afford a paid internship this summer. Fuck the idea of kids being soft for wanted to be paid for their work, not everyone has the same privileges you did as a white male in a virtuous enough household to afford the luxury of an unpaid internship. This is one of my major issues with Williamstown as a summer stock option for interns. There are a lot of opportunities associated with having Williamstown on a resume and meeting people while being there. They work largely off of their intern population and it isn’t acceptable business operations for any reputable company. Even as a paid employee I would have trouble with their set-up and working under an organization that to be frank abuses it’s interns.
I think if a company is going to run an unpaid internship program, there should be scholarships so people aren’t barred from going for financial reasons. If they can really make a case for the program being geared for the benefit of the interns (classes/ workshops, opportunities to shadow different parts of the company, etc.) and it is functionally closer to hands on classes than an entry level temporary job, then I think unpaid might be valid, but I think some stipend or housing should be available for those who otherwise couldn’t take the opportunity. I know that there are scholarships for people to take internships they otherwise couldn’t take, but I still think it is on the company for them to try to make the opportunity affordable to more than just those lucky enough to be able to spend an entire summer (or year) not even making enough money to pay for food and rent. I understand that this types of internships are standard in a lot of industries, and it is hard to get companies to pay people to do things that they can get people to do for free, but I don’t think it is ethical, and for a good chunk of theater internships, it isn’t even legal.
"I never got paid back in the day for my internships. None of my friends did. We have never complained. Today's kids are just soft," Miles Teg tutted. REALLY? I personally agree more with this quote: "Stop acting like it is an honour for a young student to step into your studio or your presence is a blessing for them," said Ali. "This is not the medieval times where you take someone in as an apprentice and provide them a living in exchange for teaching them the craftsmanship." Molly McCarter told us not to work for free (unless there are specific circumstances) and I totally agree. Not only are interns usually college age, but they’re usually the age where they are trying to build up a savings account and like, live on their own. How can you expect them to do that when they’re being used as free labor? Many companies take credit for the work their interns do to help big projects, and when they’re being paid it’s like “oh well” but when they’re working for free?????? NOT OKAY. In general: “If you run a business and can't afford to pay your employees you should not be in business.” I think the only time it’s ethically okay to have an unpaid internship is if it’s more of a shadowing, and less of a “we’re making you do actual work for us.” I had an unpaid architecture internship in high school for a short amount of time, so I could still work a real job for the rest of the summer, where I was pretty much a shadow, that followed them around to see what the day to day life of an architect was. They were very nice and explained things to me through the day, as well as showing me how to do some design stuff, and then giving me old projects to work on so I could try doing it on my own. This was more of a learning opportunity to help figure out what I wanted to major in in college. They took time out of their day to help me and I didn’t contribute any actual work to the firm. I was 15 and it was a short period of time. In this instance, and this instance only, I think it’s okay to pay in “experience.”
Unpaid internships are a controversial issue for good reason. I was wrestling with that issue a few weeks ago while trying to decide if I could afford to accept an internship offer that was fantastic in all aspects (it was in Italy!) except that it was unpaid. While they paid for housing, the travel expenses to get there meant that I would be spending money over the summer, and would be unable to earn money in other ways while I worked for free, and I had to turn it down. The problem with unpaid internships is that they would be okay if it were truly a purely educational experience, but interns are almost always treated as members of the staff and complete work for the company. Regardless of the amount or importance of the work completed, if an intern is doing something for the benefit of the company they are with, they deserve to be paid for their efforts. If a company chooses not to pay an intern, it should be because they have diverted resources purely to the education of that intern, not because they want a free worker to exploit.
I am upset at this article not in a way that any of the other comments are upset about this article but in a whole different way. Yes it is frustrating that there are internships that don’t pay that is an issue everywhere and yes it is ablest and classist and all bad things. However, these things are gonna keep happening as long as the industry values the experience. Yes, there are people who boycott Williamstown Theatre Festival and other companies like the Eugene O’Neil Theatre Center and others that don’t pay but the theatre industry and many other industries still value the names and recommendations people get from unpaid internships. I am not supporting these companies for doing this but this is simply the law of supply and demand in place. Until there is no value in doing an unpaid internship, people won’t stop doing them. I have talked to several people who talk about all their Williamstown connections and other internship connections. I completely understand everyone’s outrage but outrage doesn’t lead to change. Yes, boycotting places is one way to show your support to paid internships but the real way to stop unpaid internships is to stop the industry from letting Williamstown give so many connections. Hotshot talent needs to not go to Williamstown or other places that don’t pay their interns. However, this is highly unlikely to happen in my lifetime.
It is just outright unacceptable to have unpaid internships. Work is work and people should be compensated when they are working under one entity. If a company does not have the adequate funds to be paying every employee, then they should be actively seeking out grants and scholarship money that can at, the very least, subsidize living expenses while working on the job.
The bottom line for me is simply don’t apply for the jobs that are offering no pay. If a company is trying to sell an experience as a learning opportunity you tell them that you are prepared to learn and grow at every opportunity you take and you don’t need them to quantify that in a monetary form. I hope that organizations that don’t pay their interns realize they are actively taking away the opportunity from people that can’t afford to work for free and that, most of all is the saddest fact about this topic.
13 comments:
I agree, and I think this fully applies to theater as well. I think that theater does much better in this sense because of the nature of summer stock, yet there are still internships which carry a lot of weight on a resume, yet are known to end up costing the intern a significant amount of money *cough cough* Williamstown. In the end, these internships only support those who are privileged enough to be capable of losing money on their internship. Even cost neutral internships to me can be problematic. Internships are meant for people who are in college or are recent college graduates and there are many young people having to pay their own way. Sometimes it is simply not affordable to end up making no money for the summer. That said, cost neutral is better than nothing. The existence of summer stocks makes interning a much more accessible opportunity within theater, but there are still ways to improve.
I commented on the earlier post about this issue as well. Unpaid internships are classist and promote the idea that your labor and time are not worth anything unless you are a full employee. This is entirely unacceptable; Students are saddled with life long debts the moment they start their education. How can any organization reasonably expect any but the wealthiest of students to be able to work for three months (summer internship) or a full semester without being paid? Bills like housing, food, insurance, etc. still need to be paid. The firm in question in this article suggests that paying interns is an unviable practice. What? If you run a business and can't afford to pay your employees, then you should not be in business. That is how our economic paradigm functions. Don't want to pay people? Tough. It is really nice to see that the gallery took a stand against the practice, even though the architects will likely just move unpaid staff to other projects.
This is such a peculiar issue that plagues me and the rest of my peers everyday. A lot of really big companies get away with not paying their interns simply because its an observation position. For me this is interesting because the internship can and will be much better for someone in the future, but its also a financial hit. I really think that we risk a lot, no matter what internship we choose to go to. Each of them have issues, some work you more than others, and occasionally, you end up doing work that you should have been paid for. An unpaid internship is definitely something that people should consider before taking it, can you find the same thing somewhere else? Is this internship worth it in the future? Are you going to have a good time at this internship? I don't really have the most vocal opinion on this topic either way, but I do think that there are pros and cons to both.
I definitely believe in the importance of paid internships because it does not limit opportunity from those with less financial resources. I learned through my brother who majored in finance, that it is very rare for internships for those in business to be unpaid. Yet this is not always in the case in other fields, specifically theatre. Depending on many other resources that are provided though, I believe this can be negotiated. Sometimes having housing and transportation be provided is worth more than the minimal pay offered. My point is, that internships provide valuable experiences for students and those who are new to an industry, but they must not be taken advantage of. The company is benefitting just as much as the interns, so they should not simply be a free labor source. This is especially important in companies such as the one in this article that utilize creative insight from these interns.
I find it odd that there is a debate over paying interns. The answer to me seems very clear. Although this isn’t my reasoning there is the valid point that unpaid interns have and will sue the company they work for as they are told to do actual work for the company yet aren’t payed for that work at all or well below anything that equates to something of value or worth. The only time unpaid internships would be correct is if the intern isn’t doing anything for the company at all. This would include menial tasks like moving papers from office to office or grabbing coffee. If what they are doing in any manner is for the company, then they should be paid minimum wage at the very least as is required by law. However, such an internship would be worthless if to not work for the company in any respect. As for my reasoning, it cannot be expected that people can work for a length of time without pay. People need money to pay bills, buy food, and simply support themselves in a way that allows them to continue living. Without pay for a standard summer length internship would be to dedicate your time for three months and work for them while not getting payed, effectively losing your home or becoming much further in debt. This just isn’t a good system and anyone who is worth having as an intern is worth being paid.
This article discusses an issue that my peers and I are always thinking about. I honestly believe that, if a company is able, they should pay their interns. It is not only an issue of teaching interns that their work is valuable and should be rewarded, even if they may not be complete experts in a certain field, which is a huge issue on its own, but there are also financial repercussions to young people who are trying to move up in a field. If internships do not pay, then people who are not able to spend a summer without making any money are immediately excluded from certain opportunities that, by nature, should be open to all. I do not think that any intern is expecting to be paid a full salary because they are there to learn as well as to help move a production forward, but not paying anything makes the work interns do completely valueless, which it is not, and excludes many people.
Someone once told me something which to a “muggle” may sound a little unorthodox, but it definitely stuck: “Experience bucks can’t buy you lunch.” Our industry does not pay well, as we all know, and experience and understanding of the art is something which is greatly valued. Internships are a bridging of the gap between education and employment, but for some reason, with way too many organizations, the second “education” is brought into the mix, the money disappears. A number of my friends ultimately decided not to work in theatre because they could not work in the industry to help pay off school in their summer months. Unfortunately, this happens in a wide range of other fields too. This then becomes an issue of classism, as educational opportunities are not accessible to students who can’t afford to live without an income. It angers me because these internships are huge educational opportunities and great resume add-ons, but they’re only available for people who can afford them. Paid internships validate the value of a person’s work, allow them to (hopefully) keep themselves financially stable, and make the internship all the more valuable.
Unpaid internships should not happen, its not okay for people to lose money by accepting an opportunity to work somewhere. It feeds into so much economic disparity and the loss of opportunity for individuals who can’t afford an unpaid internship, I realized after applying I wouldn’t even be able to afford a paid internship this summer. Fuck the idea of kids being soft for wanted to be paid for their work, not everyone has the same privileges you did as a white male in a virtuous enough household to afford the luxury of an unpaid internship. This is one of my major issues with Williamstown as a summer stock option for interns. There are a lot of opportunities associated with having Williamstown on a resume and meeting people while being there. They work largely off of their intern population and it isn’t acceptable business operations for any reputable company. Even as a paid employee I would have trouble with their set-up and working under an organization that to be frank abuses it’s interns.
I think if a company is going to run an unpaid internship program, there should be scholarships so people aren’t barred from going for financial reasons. If they can really make a case for the program being geared for the benefit of the interns (classes/ workshops, opportunities to shadow different parts of the company, etc.) and it is functionally closer to hands on classes than an entry level temporary job, then I think unpaid might be valid, but I think some stipend or housing should be available for those who otherwise couldn’t take the opportunity. I know that there are scholarships for people to take internships they otherwise couldn’t take, but I still think it is on the company for them to try to make the opportunity affordable to more than just those lucky enough to be able to spend an entire summer (or year) not even making enough money to pay for food and rent. I understand that this types of internships are standard in a lot of industries, and it is hard to get companies to pay people to do things that they can get people to do for free, but I don’t think it is ethical, and for a good chunk of theater internships, it isn’t even legal.
"I never got paid back in the day for my internships. None of my friends did. We have never complained. Today's kids are just soft," Miles Teg tutted. REALLY? I personally agree more with this quote: "Stop acting like it is an honour for a young student to step into your studio or your presence is a blessing for them," said Ali. "This is not the medieval times where you take someone in as an apprentice and provide them a living in exchange for teaching them the craftsmanship." Molly McCarter told us not to work for free (unless there are specific circumstances) and I totally agree. Not only are interns usually college age, but they’re usually the age where they are trying to build up a savings account and like, live on their own. How can you expect them to do that when they’re being used as free labor? Many companies take credit for the work their interns do to help big projects, and when they’re being paid it’s like “oh well” but when they’re working for free?????? NOT OKAY. In general: “If you run a business and can't afford to pay your employees you should not be in business.” I think the only time it’s ethically okay to have an unpaid internship is if it’s more of a shadowing, and less of a “we’re making you do actual work for us.” I had an unpaid architecture internship in high school for a short amount of time, so I could still work a real job for the rest of the summer, where I was pretty much a shadow, that followed them around to see what the day to day life of an architect was. They were very nice and explained things to me through the day, as well as showing me how to do some design stuff, and then giving me old projects to work on so I could try doing it on my own. This was more of a learning opportunity to help figure out what I wanted to major in in college. They took time out of their day to help me and I didn’t contribute any actual work to the firm. I was 15 and it was a short period of time. In this instance, and this instance only, I think it’s okay to pay in “experience.”
Unpaid internships are a controversial issue for good reason. I was wrestling with that issue a few weeks ago while trying to decide if I could afford to accept an internship offer that was fantastic in all aspects (it was in Italy!) except that it was unpaid. While they paid for housing, the travel expenses to get there meant that I would be spending money over the summer, and would be unable to earn money in other ways while I worked for free, and I had to turn it down. The problem with unpaid internships is that they would be okay if it were truly a purely educational experience, but interns are almost always treated as members of the staff and complete work for the company. Regardless of the amount or importance of the work completed, if an intern is doing something for the benefit of the company they are with, they deserve to be paid for their efforts. If a company chooses not to pay an intern, it should be because they have diverted resources purely to the education of that intern, not because they want a free worker to exploit.
I am upset at this article not in a way that any of the other comments are upset about this article but in a whole different way. Yes it is frustrating that there are internships that don’t pay that is an issue everywhere and yes it is ablest and classist and all bad things. However, these things are gonna keep happening as long as the industry values the experience. Yes, there are people who boycott Williamstown Theatre Festival and other companies like the Eugene O’Neil Theatre Center and others that don’t pay but the theatre industry and many other industries still value the names and recommendations people get from unpaid internships. I am not supporting these companies for doing this but this is simply the law of supply and demand in place. Until there is no value in doing an unpaid internship, people won’t stop doing them. I have talked to several people who talk about all their Williamstown connections and other internship connections. I completely understand everyone’s outrage but outrage doesn’t lead to change. Yes, boycotting places is one way to show your support to paid internships but the real way to stop unpaid internships is to stop the industry from letting Williamstown give so many connections. Hotshot talent needs to not go to Williamstown or other places that don’t pay their interns. However, this is highly unlikely to happen in my lifetime.
It is just outright unacceptable to have unpaid internships. Work is work and people should be compensated when they are working under one entity. If a company does not have the adequate funds to be paying every employee, then they should be actively seeking out grants and scholarship money that can at, the very least, subsidize living expenses while working on the job.
The bottom line for me is simply don’t apply for the jobs that are offering no pay. If a company is trying to sell an experience as a learning opportunity you tell them that you are prepared to learn and grow at every opportunity you take and you don’t need them to quantify that in a monetary form. I hope that organizations that don’t pay their interns realize they are actively taking away the opportunity from people that can’t afford to work for free and that, most of all is the saddest fact about this topic.
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