Monday, October 20, 2008
America's Most Overrated Product: the Bachelor's Degree
Chronicle.com: "I have a hard time telling such people the killer statistic: Among high-school students who graduated in the bottom 40 percent of their classes, and whose first institutions were four-year colleges, two-thirds had not earned diplomas eight and a half years later. That figure is from a study cited by Clifford Adelman, a former research analyst at the U.S. Department of Education and now a senior research associate at the Institute for Higher Education Policy. Yet four-year colleges admit and take money from hundreds of thousands of such students each year!"
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22 comments:
I was really surprised how many people go to college for X number of years and end up never getting a diploma. The way for people to avoid this is to actually think about whether or not college will benefit them or not. Its true that this gets said a number of times to high school seniors, but no one takes it to heart. In today's society its frowned upon if you haven't been through a university.
But people really do need to think about. Some people don't anything away from the typical university setting. They probably could be much more successful by using that tuition money else where.
What scared me most about this article was the fact that the value of a basic diploma is decreasing. I know a lot of majors in college really do not teach job skills, and basically boil down to schedule self exploration time, but still, graduating should mean something. I may have missed this, but I would've like the article to talk about graduate school some. I get the impression that graduate school has become equivalent to what college once was.
I couldn't agree more with what people have said before--people DO need to assess whether or not they need to go to college, and perhaps more importantly where they're going if they do go to college. One reason I think I like CMU so much is how everyone knows (or seems to know) what they're going to pursue. Not only do you get stronger performance in classes, more focus, but a very diverse crowd of smart but cool people. I just couldn't stand being around a whole bunch of people who have little idea of what they're doing. College is for experimenting and finding out what you want to do, to an extent. You should have SOME long term goals.
Like Kelli said, it really surprised me how many people go to college and never get their diploma. Its sad that a large amount of money is basically wasted,why isn't that money spent in other, more beneficial ways? People need to really think about themselves and their situations before they make huge decisions, like college.
Andrew says that he enjoys CMU because everybody seems to know what they want to pursue, and I can understand that. However, I went to a liberal arts school for undergrad, and I can't stress enough how beneficial it was. It's truly amazing to be in an environment which encourages you to try different things and fosters your intellectual curiosity, and it's great to be surrounded by people who are discovering new things and enjoying their freedom along with you. Along with getting a BA in Theatre, I also got a minor in History, I played baseball, I took classes in science, classics, literature, and sociology. I am so grateful that I got the opportunity to do all of those things, which I probably would not have been able to do if I had gone to CMU for undergrad. Don't underestimate the beauty of exploration, curiosity, and freedom.
The information that is being presented in this article and others seem to be contradictory. On one hand, the number of people getting a degree is lower but also the value of the degree is lower. On the other hand, there are less and less opportunities for anyone who des not at least have a basic bachelors. Although college is a time for exploration, without at least a little focus, it is time and money better spent elsewhere.
I think that this article reflects a problem, not only with the system of higher education, but also our primary and secondary schools. Critical thinking and communication as well as basic financial and historical knowledge are all things that high schools should be teaching. I am saddened by the decrease in value of a undergraduate education, but I think that it just forces us to work harder and think more about long term plans.
What the article said about the professor's primary goal being teaching is really interesting (though not unsurprising). Teaching is one profession where you have to be dedicated to you job and love what you do. It is not something that you can do "on the side" because so much of your energy and self has to be put into the lesson.
This is an interesting article. I am pretty surprised by the statistics. I believe however in most cases colleges aren't to blame. A lot of teenagers out there today have priorities that are set at different things. Too many American teenagers I believe are not ready for college. I think it would be better for us to question the education system. Honestly i think it would make more sense for students to have a cushion of time where they can just relax and get tired of all the things they want to do and realize it is time to work. A lot of students are just preoccupied and don't realize how America happens to have a great education program and they should be thankful but they have to get all of the distractions out of their lives first.
I can't believe the number of people who drop out after so many years without having a degree. It is so sad and upsetting that they went through paying all that money for nothing. Then government really needs to step in and do something. The cost of college is getting very ridiculous and will continue to rise. The govenment needs to do something. They should also do somehting about the "product" coming out of most four-year schools and find a way to improve it. Those who desire a college education should be able to afford it and be able to get somehting out of it that will lead them to a decent job!
This article completely ignores the demographic that is most common in my town, students who don't spend their first year of college in a four year institution. I think that the community college can be as much of a trap when students use it as limbo instead of as a bridge between high school and a university. I know a lot of people who have spent four years in two year institutions, and while they are not sinking nearly as much money, that means they could do so indefinitely.
I think I'm a prime example of the heart of this article; three years at CMU and $150,000 later and I'm a freshman again. CS and science here was miserable for me because most of the faculty are not here to teach; they are here to do research. Educating students is a bi-product of their positions within the university. I know after two years of struggling, dropping out of CS was shattering to my self esteem (I had a 3.5 GPA for goodness sakes and most of my friends still think I failed out of the program).
The problem now is that even though I love the faculty and I love what I am doing I'm not sure how much my diploma will be worth, or if it will be worth the money and time of those wasted two years. I almost want to go back to state school (for free) after I graduate and get a second degree with all my wasted CS credits. : (
Ah...college...
This is sad. First off I think that this is simply something one must have to do much in the world. I do know many people who have gone through highschool and started working right after that and they have made a wonderful living for themselves and a happy life. It just seems like something that I have always seen as something that was expected from kids. After high school, you go to college and then work. It was just how things are I thought. But obviously it is a different story for everyone. From the article i have realized that there are many people who would like to go to college and have not had the right oppertunities and or the right grade average... even a community college is something, you know? It is a sad thing when the government wont fund such kids who want to go to college that just dont seem to have the qualifications. Hopefully one day this will change and people will be able to go to a college that is fitted for them!
More and more these days, people are ending up getting a master's degree on top of a bachelor's degree bc that is what employers want. I think that the main problem that American students have is that they believe that they are expected to go to college and eventually figure out what they want to do when they get there. The result is often misspent money and time wasted. I think that American kids should take a year off after high school to work in the real world at an internship in their area of interest THEN pick a major and go to school. It would help eliminate the time misspent aimlessly bouncing from major to major. I worked in my field for two summers professionally in Los Angeles before attending CMU. The experience helped me see the industry from a realistic perspective and erased any doubts of my success in the world of scene design. I would encourage individuals who are unsure of their area of interest to look early and try out jobs through internships.
Several issues with this article:
Looking at class sizes across universities is an unfair comparison. In my undergrad, I took 1 class in 4 years that was over 30 students. It was a Psych 101 class. I have never taken a theater class over 30 students. I have also not taken very many theater lecture classes. I think this statistic needs to be looked at by degree and college type.
Students in college should be accountable for them selves. They are becoming adults. If they drop out or not able to get "acceptable" grades, they should be held accountable. If they need help, they should go ask for it. Teachers can only provide the information and the opportunity to learn, the student must choose to.
So... are we supposed to brand our students when the graduate as government approved?
I am glad that I received my BA from a liberal arts university. It has proven very useful in my career. It is up to the students to get the most out of it they can and use it after graduation.
These were really surprising and depressing statistics. People work so hard to get into college and have such high expectations for what that institution will do for them, but things don't always work out the way you hope. I feel like a lot more people who DO graduate college immediately continue to grad school because a bachelor's degree is losing its worth.
I've never considered my diploma an important tool in landing a job after graduation. I think it is the people you meet and the relationships you discover are what allow for a successful post grad life. I bet a lot of the jobs that grads landed after this program weren't because of "CMU BFA DRAMA" but because of the internship they got from an alum their junior year, or the designer they met that came in to teach a class
This article was a bit uneasy. It has been said that nowadays, one needs at least a Master's Degree in order to get good work. however, I'm optimistic as to how the upcoming presidency will adress this issue. The affects of a declining prose literacy among college graduates is also a bit saddening; even if "enlightenment" is what colleges would argue for, a lot of this could be accomplished by a keen proficiency in higher literacy. Anyway, like I said, we'll have to see how this goes after my dawg Barack becomes president.
I can understand that people may perceive the bachelors degree as an mere extension of the high school education, but one aspect which I felt was not examined was the fact of specialisaton. In high school we take many courses to foster a well rounded education. In college we are given the chance to focus and embrace a more in depth approach to our studies. This is a huge difference and a major factor in why the bachelors degree is relevant and useful.
I believe part of the problem with students not being successful in college comes from how early society begins to put pressure on students to focus on college. Students these days are expected to begin the college application process and even college earlier and earlier giving them no time to think or consider their options. Often students end up trapped at a college pursuing a major that is not right them in debt and with no way out. Something must be done to change this mentality of never endless rushing.
Sure it's scary to think about the loss of value in a diploma, but that's for an average diploma. For us, the value is less because the people that aren't in class with us are learning by doing. Eventually you get the exact same skill set by needing to work through a problem that you get by having a person tell you how to make it work. The fact that most people don't graduate isn't surprising, our class has already lost allot of people in a year. Looking back at high school and thinking about the people that went to other colleges and the kind of person they where then makes that even less surprising.
I think an assessment of colleges is a great idea, but in a slightly different way. for example, here at cmu, freshman have to buy a meal plan and live on campus. I hate how much money i waste on food because of this system. money gets tapped in my dam blocks, and i have no were to make pasta or a sandwich so i have to spend 10 for one serving on campus. this is just one example of how inflated the price of college is getting. also speaking to the quality of my education - if the college is going to make required courses they should be worth my time. so far i am required to waste about 5000 dollars an pointless required classes that aren't challenging and are taught poorly. my time and money are more valuable than that. i think students get more out of college when they take classes they want and have a focus for their future. with the colleges the major problems are more fiscal, the points he makes regarding reforms should be applied to secondary level education. in high school students need to be taught how to learn, how to gain a focus of their future, how to write...college should be a time for refinement and extra learning, people after high school graduation should be able to go into the work force and be a success - we can't look to hundred thousand dollar institutions to fix our countries education problems - we need to fix the public schools.
In response to Hjohnson Wanted to touch a note on why grads go to grad school right outta undergrad. I doubt very much that a person looking into grad school is thinking "my degree isn't worth enough on my resume". For me it was the simple choice that I wanted to teach later in life and like heck was I going to do it any later after settling down more. I found that in looking for a grad-school, you were going for specialization or more experience in an area with a "safety net".
And I concur with Sam and Cody in that hitting up the liberal Arts first was a good move. Especially for me, since I wanted to try everything. But for those who know what they want, I agree as well that a liberal arts is not a place to go to really focus on a subject.
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