Wednesday, September 14, 2016
Watch Flesh-Detecting Table Saw Technology Save a Finger | Bosch Reaxx
www.popularmechanics.com: We've seen the hot dog demo from Sawstop that shows their blade-braking technology in action. But Kenny Koehler at Pro Tool Reviews decided to take it a step further by risking his own finger and hand, with a real test of the new Bosch Reaxx flesh-detecting active response technology. Do NOT try this at home.
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18 comments:
So this "brand new technology" works almost exactly the same as a SawStop works. I suppose I'm simply confused as to what benefits this saw has over the SawStop? My initial investigation has revealed that SawStop is considered to be the better option. SawStop's technology has been in use for over a decade (http://www.coptool.com/battle-for-safer-jobsite-table-saws-bosch-reaxx-vs-sawstop/) without complaints other than accidental triggers with metal or wet wood. Apparently, the Bosch Reaxx was developed to compete with SawStop's jobsite JSS-MCA, which was released a bit over a year ago. However, Bosch has not revolutionized the technology, nor have they managed to create a cheaper or more portable product. The Reaxx is relatively the same size/weight as SawStop's job-site table saw, and it costs around $200 more that the time-tested SawStop. Not to mention, the Reaxx is only available as a job-site tool, unlike the SawStop. I appreciate that a different saw should be developed to create a competitive market and push both companies to create better products, however, I just don't see Reaxx as valid competition to SawStop's throne. This video was a cheap and shocking image to motivate buyers and a last ditch effort to sell a saw that just doesn't hold up.
Ahhhhh. I am a very squeamish person, but this article really interested me, so I proceeded to watch it anyways. Oh my goodness this technology is so incredible. Like many young designers, I love the power tools; they get the job done quickly and efficiently. That is not to say that I don't have a very healthy fear of them. I'm always worried I'm going to sneeze while operating the table saw (or insert any other fast, pointy object). So, to know that this technology now exists and has been pretty much failure proof so far is an incredible thing. I think about how far we've come from early industrial revolution days where machines could take limbs from you. Now we have a saw that will stop as soon as flesh touches it- how cool?! One thing I am sad about is that many small shops such as high schools and community theatres will not be getting this technology soon due to smaller budgets and the inability to buy new saws very often. However, I hope to see these more and more throughout shops to help prevent workplace injury and ensure safety of even the most trained carpenters. Also, I applaud the man who sacrificed his hand to test this.
I’ve always wondered about these flesh detecting table saws. They seem to always work really well with the hotdogs but if that’s a video from the company that made it of course they will try to make their product as good as possible. I think these saws are more made to stop you from cutting your hand in half, not necessarily prevent you from any damage if you accidentally touch the blade. I liked how this guy decided to test the blade; placing a piece of wood on top of the blade was smart in order to limit the amount of contact to his skin. But then he becomes an idiot when he decides to slam his hand down as hard as he can onto the blade! Of course it’s going to cut you, it’s a puncture wound as well as a cut, you’d get a puncture wound from the blade if it was still. A cool video, and good to know.
This is the closest thing to a modern day, really effective, low budget horror movie I've seen in a good while. I wonder how much Kenny must have been fighting his natural instinct before putting his hand against that blade. In the first video, I was actually under the impression that he was just going to push his entire hand through the saw-- I was ready for it too!!! While seriously impressive the short-circuit technology behind the blade stopping, I'm sure it could not have been pleasant to deal with those nicks after the fact. Of course when marketing the machinery, the manufactures cannot test on a human subject so they turn to items like hot dogs and steaks. That is what makes this a very valuable video however; this really does validate the product even more because now we see the effect on a real human subject. I remember last year in freshman stagecraft, DR was telling us information about the table saw in the scene shop and how it has this capability. It's really amazing how far technology has come and how many injuries it prevents.
I’m not sure if I’d call the cut on his hand “just a little bit of a scrape,” thought to be fair, it is significantly less than it could’ve been. I’m also glad that he set up the test such that he couldn’t do too much damage if the stopping mechanism failed. When he was first just moving his hand toward the blade, there was a voice in my brain screaming “What the heck are you doing!?” I’m really glad to see that flesh-detecting table saws are becoming more and more common. I’ve actually been in a shop when one of them saved a guy’s finger. I wasn’t personally watching the saw at the time, but I did see the little cut on his finger after, and it was tiny. That mistake could’ve been a disaster, but thanks to the flesh-detecting it wasn’t. Because of that incident, my personal view of these saws isn’t changed by videos like this, but if people seeing this video are convinced to get a safer saw, I think the video is worth making.
I really appreciate the humor this guy holds about the circuit blade-stopping technology, as it has receive quite a bit of skepticism in the media, especially concerning the hot dog test (which honestly should have been expected from the get go, c’mon guys, do you really think they were going to shove an intern’s hand through a blade to prove a point?). As people have mentioned above, you can’t expect this technology to totally save your skin, as contact is necessary to set off the blade stop. In any case, these example videos are a great thing to see responsible people doing for the public, especially after all of the backlash associated with the release of the technology. I still have the constant and unstoppable desire to put my hand down on a spinning SawStop, but I guess after seeing the cut on this guy after only the tip of a tooth hit him, I really shouldn’t do that for fun.
So there are some interesting ways technology has come through to help ease safety concerns especially when it comes to tool safety; and it looks like Bosch has been able to increase the safety just a little more. While being able to take saw stop technology a little further, they have, it seems, been able to increase the reaction speed a little faster of the blade retraction. The only thing that is skewed with the tests are the fact that he does have just a sliver of the blade showing, so it is harder to grasp how quickly it retracts. While he moves past the blade quickly with his finger and receives minimal damage, it doesn’t quite signify how the tool would be used in a real setting. This technology well definitely become in use on a jobsite when most table saws are portable, or just having to keep up with the ever changing OSHA standards.
30,000 people in the ER yearly comes down to something of 82 per day, not even two injuries per state per day. Making this development a more business then personal development, and a smart one two. Being the first machine to introduce this technology it pioneers a new market, being the only "safe" machine available. Being one of the only companies that currently carry this type of equipment with such a high demand they could charge an impressive price tag. Not to mention the replacement fees. On top of a hefty price tag the replacement of the cartridges still produce profit. So instead of selling a one time deal they can continuously profit form it. Its not like the saw blade's replacement cost (thank you to the freshman who thought it would be funny to test the machine in my high school and we ended up having to buy a new blade with money we didn't have) in the sense that it is a much cheaper replacement option. It leaves me wondering, where will we see this technology next? It would benefit so much to introduce these technologies to lower wage factory jobs that have high turnover rates.
While this video made me cringe, I think this is a great innovation. However, considering that that sawstop technology has been on the market for years and is now very popular, I don't think the technology is much more useful than the saw stop technology. Sure, it saves the blade, which could be useful for more expensive blades, but considering most shops already have sawstops installed, the benefits of this system don't simply make sense for the price. It does seem safer, so it makes sense for shops with a lot of money to spare or one that is in high use, but for the average shop the saw stop should suffice just fine. After all, damaging the blade shouldn't matter if you're consistently using the saw correctly--triggering the saw stop should be a rare occurrence. However, it is a good innovation and hopefully in the next few years related safety technology can be implemented.
I think everyone that has ever learned to use a table saw with this kind of technology, like the one we have in the shop, has thought to themselves, "Huh what if I put MY finger on there. I wonder if it would stop." Generally, though, people are not willing to actually risk their finger and an immense amount of pain just to say "Yeah it works!" Kenny, however, seems to be a bit more of a daredevil than the rest of the table saw using population. I hated watching this video, because even though I knew his hand would be generally okay, the suspense and the certain feeling that our dear friend Kenny would have one less finger by the end of the video was just too much for me. That being said, it is really incredible that this technology exists. The videos that these companies have released with the hot dogs being saved from mutilation are interesting and act as a nice slight reassurance as to the safety of using a table saw. Still, there is always that nagging voice in the back of my head saying, "Hmm... my fingers are not hot dogs...." This video, however, makes me feel a little more sure that the flesh detecting technology on our table saw is legit. Despite this, I still plan to continue living my life with as little interaction with saws as possible.
I gotta say, this video seems fairly wimpy even though it is really intense. It is hard to tell if the blade cut the full depth it was exposed in the first video, since the amount of blade sticking up was so minimal it is hard to tell if the blade retreated into the body of the saw before it cut its full exposed depth. Beyond that, I think the improvements Bosch and sawstop have made have made a world of difference. The Bosch reaxx has been on the market for a while, but only recently has it been compared to sawstop’s capabilities and that is making for an interesting market. With sawstop having a monopoly on “safe” saws, they had no reason to improve their design significantly. Now there is a decent competitor and SawStop and Bosch are pushing each other to make safer, better saws. I hope that in the near future, other saw companies, maybe some with cabinet saws, will find a way to break into the “safe” saw industry and continue to push the market.
While I think its good that this technology exists and is becoming more wide spread, I don’t know how much I would trust this particular method of stopping a saw blade. After reading over how Bosch’s system works, it seems a little more complicated than I would feel totally comfortable. The entire thing seems to hinge on the assumption that the stop pin will knock the blade out of its clasp and that the blade will fall away cleanly. Sure that’s a safe assumption on a brand new machine but what about one that’s been used for a while? Also in the video you can hear the blade keep spinning after the stop gets triggered, sure its probably not a big deal but I’d certainly feel safer if the blade was stopped somehow just incase it didn’t fall away properly. All in all, I prefer Sawstop’s solution of jamming a brick of aluminum into the blade as a brake while it falls away. Sure it destroys your blade but it also stops it cold.
Man, that guy must have nerves of steel! I could never inch my hand towards a loud, spinning blade even if I knew I would come away mainly unharmed. Just watching the video made me tense up. The fake out at the beginning of the video was just cruel. I am glad that he actually thought this through and put the piece of 2x4 to minimize any possible damage. This video did not make me feel much better about using a table saw, even with a flesh-detecting blade. He still got cut both times, sure not as bad as it could have been, but still not that comforting. I can’t believe how calm the guy was both times after he had been cut by the blade of the table saw. I think that it is great that this technology exists, but I don’t know if he really had to go so far as to test it with his own hand.
This is all well and good until the technology - including the sensor, the stopping mechanism, and other components - breaks down or does not work. And once is all it takes to sever a finger. Sensors like this, while good in one regard, foster a sense of reliance of these not-failsafe technologies, and create a false sense of security. If one becomes conditioned to working on a saw with this reactive feature, and then moves to a saw without it, their sense of safety and awareness might not be up to what is required when working with the saw without any additional safety features.
I think we should by all means keep producing saws with reactive stops like this, but we also need to find a way to keep users vigilant and not reliant upon this safety feature. Solving this problem is nigh impossible. It will be interesting to see if - as this technology disperses - if accidents decrease.
I think this is a very interesting technology and it certainly has a use for worksite table saws. Dropping the entire blade assembly down is certainly a innovative way of safeguarding against accidents, but I feel like it just may not be enough. As we can see in the video, even with a 2x4 protecting form most of the blade, the palm of his hand still got pretty shredded.
I think that while innovation should always be rewarded, the need for capacitive e-stops like these can be reduced simply by proper safety procedures and equipment. As a previous commenter has said, we should not be reliant on this technology alone to save our hands.
I do appreciate Bosch's solution, which seems to save the blade from destruction, but I'm not sure I feel as safe with that as I do with Saw-stop's explosive shunt ramming into the blade.
Interesting take on a safety saw like this. the sawstop breaks when it stops it, this retracts the whole assembly. The advantage of this seems that you dont have to purchase a new piece and fix your saw after an accident like this. the only potential problem i see is that if the blade still spinning as it retracts this could still pull in things like loose clothing causing more damage that the sawstop dose not.
Bosch does an interesting take on the saw stop system we have known for years now. Instead of rendering the blade useless after one accident and having to replace the entire system, the blade quickly retracts into the table but manages to compensate with the force as it keeps spinning. Besides saving thousands on hospital bills for sewing your finger back on, which the saw stop already ensures, the Bosch table saw now saves you roughly $100 if you do happen to have an accident since it saves the blade.
There are a few problems that come with this system. Generally, the biggest con with these table saw systems is that it might cause the user to cut with less concern for their safety since they've acknowledged the fact that there is a safety mechanism in place in case they mess up--they feel safe. However, this can be a huge problem if they move on to use a tool without any safety mechanism or if the mechanism happens to fail/deactivate. More specifically, it seems like the Bosch table saw is not nearly as effective at preventing injury as the saw stop since it also seeks to preserve the blade. This ended up producing a much nastier cut, as seen in the video, which might still require stitches. Also, if anything were to fall into the table saw's chamber then it could have catastrophic effect since the blade is still in motion.
I'm interested to see how reviews of this saw change as it gets out onto more and more jobsites. A portable table saw can see so much abuse, I think I would trust its safety features even less than those of SawStop. Moisture and dust could both easily effect the capacitance of the blade and compromise the safety features. Still, even if if it works only some of the time it could save a lot of fingers. As with any type of tool guarding, an appropriately trained operator should treat the tool as if it is entirely unguarded and not rely on the safety features. The safety features of this saw and the saw stop are not meant to replace the common sense of "don't shove your hand into the blade" or the training that helps a new carpenter know where to position his or her hands so that they aren't in the path of the blade. My final issue with the article is that they imply that saw stop has only ever done a hot dog test with their product, which simply isn't true. In fact, the creator of Saw Stop volunteered his own finger as a test subject for his product, which was recorded on high speed cameras for the Discovery Channel show Time Warp.
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